Curse

DrSLUGFly · Sep 06, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

I was rather hoping that there would be no "observer mode" but instead an "observation area" by this I mean that I was hoping you could go to an area where with your actual character you could watch a fight taking place... this would be much cooler in terms of atmosphere.

Sleet · Sep 06, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Paranoid, paranoid, paranoid!

That’s the only reason I can see why people would NOT want someone to view their game.

Lets face it.. everyone is paranoid, if they introduced this.. then guess what, you probably wont find ANY decent games to observe...and what a waste of all that programming.

I think this is the way it should work...

Competitive and Team Arena matches should NOT have any kind of restriction to anyone who wants to observe.

Guild Vs Guild, and if it arrives, Inter Guild Battles (Practise) should be accessible only to members of the guilds who are fighting. (and possibly a toggle to open it for public)

Hall of Heroes should be permanently available to everyone.. after all these are international battles to which EVERYONE has a vested interest.

I would just like to say another thing...

the most competitive and popular game in the world is football.... the reason why its so popular is due to the amount of people who watch it!...

Imagine if they were paranoid and didn’t want any on-looking rival team to learn how they play! what would they do? hold the game behind locked doors? lol! Exactly.. its daft.. the single truth is, the more people observing any game increases its own popularity AND competitiveness.

If I was to vote for anything I would say unlock everything for everyone!... and allow PVE to be observed as well... (at least if you then crash you can see how the team got on without you)

agree !

Epinephrine · Sep 06, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Only idiots think their builds are secret. If you can't figure out what your enemy is doing you really need help. I have no problem giving away my builds, and that's fine - as soon as I use them. I won't talk about a work in progress, or give away a build we're about to try, but once it's out there, why not? If it works people will observe it and copy it anyway, just like in MtG or any other game like this. It's then up to you to make it better, to tweak it and to bring skill to the table. Only half the game is builds, the other half is playing.

salja Wachi · Sep 06, 2005, 02:24 PM // 14:24

i would go so far as to say it is even less then that buildwise.

maybe 60-40 or 70-30

i will take a balanced build with experienced players over any "elite build" with lesser players

UberRusty · Sep 06, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

I would just like to say another thing...

the most competitive and popular game in the world is football.... the reason why its so popular is due to the amount of people who watch it!...

Imagine if they were paranoid and didn’t want any on-looking rival team to learn how they play! what would they do? hold the game behind locked doors? lol! Exactly.. its daft.. the single truth is, the more people observing any game increases its own popularity AND competitiveness.

Yes, taking an example from WoC is the best way to go about it. I've HEARD IT ALREADY. Me = <3 WoC.

Quote:

Only idiots think their builds are secret. If you can't figure out what your enemy is doing you really need help. I have no problem giving away my builds, and that's fine - as soon as I use them. I won't talk about a work in progress, or give away a build we're about to try, but once it's out there, why not? If it works people will observe it and copy it anyway, just like in MtG or any other game like this. It's then up to you to make it better, to tweak it and to bring skill to the table. Only half the game is builds, the other half is playing.

I don't think you guys get my point... the point is not that I wish a build to remain a secret, but that your builds will be more or less un-unique once you are successful with it. For those that have read the smiting threads, competition will be boring. That is exactly what will happen. Once you get a unique build out, that works, is simple, and successful. Blam, everyone else is using it. Then will come the anti-FoTM builds, and then everybody would be running that. And so forth.

PvP will be BORING. And I requote:

Quote:

Good builds are simple builds. Simple builds are good builds.

Teufel Eldritch · Sep 06, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I think a toggle for the skill bar would be nice. No need to give the info away for free. Animations however I believe should remain. Nothing wrong with figuring out a build thru the animations. That's part of the fun.

zehly · Sep 06, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Not to mention... I don't want people seeing that I might be using a ressurect spell instead of a signet, and then get flamed via message "NEWB."

desktopbob · Sep 06, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

You guys really don't get it. You're so worried that your super-secret combo will be discovered (it will be regardless of observer mode if its really that great) that you're missing the bigger picture. The more KNOWLEDGE that's available to everyone through observing good teams in action (what skills are used, how they use them, etc...) the better EVERYONE becomes at pvp. The end result is tombs becomes a much more competitive, innovative environment. Now, when random pug X gets destroyed by a decent team, instead of just saying "oh, we lost because they were good," and becoming frustrated with tombs in general, they can actually look back and learn from the experience. Yes, you too can learn from watching matches. Now, when random team X gets destroyed by the FOTM, rather than running to the forums and claiming FOTM is impossible to beat and must be nerfed, they can watch matches and see first-hand how that FOTM can be beaten (and it usually can) and maybe, that team will use what they learned to create a build to beat FOTM rather than simply copying it. Observer mode makes the propagation of new build concepts and ideas flow through the tombs community much faster which should lead to a much faster evolving environment; and that, afterall, is the way it should be. So please, try to look past this selfish paranoia to the greater good of the game as a whole and you'll see in the end that a completely clairvoyant view of observer mode helps make the game a better, more fun environment for everyone.

UberRusty · Sep 06, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Not to mention... I don't want people seeing that I might be using a ressurect spell instead of a signet, and then get flamed via message "NEWB."

Fastcast rez FTW!!

@ desktopbob: Did you even READ any of the posts above? Especially my ones? It is YOU and OTHERS who does not get it. I am NOT WORRIED about my super secret combo (not that I even have any). I am NOT WORRIED about being copied and not given credit for anything (others may care, I don't give a shit). What I AM WORRIED about is that once you win HoH a few times with the build, YOUR. BUILD. IS. TRASH. [BOLD]Unless the Observer delay is a WEEK or so.[/BOLD] What I AM WORRIED about is that it will not be a "fun fun euphoria fun" environment, it will just deterioate into "OMG *insert name here* WON HOH! LEZZ GO COPY DERE BILD!!!!" Once you win with a build that has any real staying power in HoH, everyone will jump on and blam, next FoTM.

I don't know whether the observer mode is made for GvG too, because if it is, then guilds will have to change builds overnight.

Quote:

So please, try to look past this selfish paranoia to the greater good of the game as a whole and you'll see in the end that a completely clairvoyant view of observer mode helps make the game a better, more fun environment for everyone.

So please, try to look past this selfish "I crave for good builds but will not make it myself" as a whole and you'll see in the end that observer mode will help make the game a dull, plagarised environment for everyone.

Mavrik · Sep 06, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Um... Observer mode? WHAT IS THAT? I saw it asked before but never saw it answered so I'll ASK. WHAT IS IT?!!!!! HOW DOES IT WORK?!!!

desktopbob · Sep 06, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

@ desktopbob: Did you even READ any of the posts above? Especially my ones? It is YOU and OTHERS who does not get it. I am NOT WORRIED about my super secret combo (not that I even have any). I am NOT WORRIED about being copied and not given credit for anything (others may care, I don't give a shit). What I AM WORRIED about is that once you win HoH a few times with the build, YOUR. BUILD. IS. TRASH. [BOLD]Unless the Observer delay is a WEEK or so.[/BOLD] What I AM WORRIED about is that it will not be a "fun fun euphoria fun" environment, it will just deterioate into "OMG *insert name here* WON HOH! LEZZ GO COPY DERE BILD!!!!" Once you win with a build that has any real staying power in HoH, everyone will jump on and blam, next FoTM.

I don't think you understand, the concern you've just expressed is precisely the concern I'm saying is selfish and counter-productive to the pvp environment as a whole. Perhaps if I rephrase "super secret combo" to "Super Secret Team Build" you'll understand. Try to think of tombs as a collective community rather than just from your limited point of view. You make a build that's completely unstoppable, it wins HoH a lot, and people take notice. This happened with the MS build for instance. The result was that build and variations of that build became prevalent through tombs. At the same time, there were many other prevalent builds in tombs. From the Point of view of MS, they're now facing better competition as people have analyzed and understood their build completely, and as a result they face better competition. From the Point of View of the community as a whole, a new, powerful strategy has been put forth for everyone to play around with and make variations on. The result is that tombs becomes more innovative and competitive. I, myself, would prefer every fight to be a good fight and every team to be a challenge. To me, this is the ideal tombs environment. Simpy rolling over unprepared teams with your amazing "super secret team build" is not a challenge, and its not that much fun. Now, how does completely open observer mode solve this problem? Simple; it allows those unprepared teams to learn very quickly why they were defeated and adapt. At the same time, it creates a very quickly evolving community as, as you said, everyone can see what builds work and why they work. Now, if a build is really so good as to take notice, like you said, it will propagate through the tombs community on its own (like the MS build), however observer mode will make this propagation occur much more quickly. flavor of the month may turn into flavor of the day, or the concept may disappear completely as more people can observe more good strategies and adapt. And put simply, the more innovative strategies that propagate through the tombs community, the more dynamic, and more fun for everyone it is in the end.

So, UberRusty, to sum up, think of your build not as your private property that entitles you to win halls nonstop for a month, but rather as a new and innovative strategy that has been introduced to the tombs community. You may run into your own build, or you may run into variations of it; and maybe, just maybe, you might learn something from that and from other builds you see used effectively in observer mode. Furthermore, running the same build day after day with no variations is stagnant and boring, and that's not what tombs is about anyway. As to your personal attack on my build making ability, well, you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't the slightest inclination as to my build-making ability so don't even try to comment on it. This and my former post are not personal attacks on you or anyone else so don't respond to them like they are.

I hope that cleared up your concerns.

Ensign · Sep 06, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

What I AM WORRIED about is that once you win HoH a few times with the build, YOUR. BUILD. IS. TRASH.

Everyone who matters knows what the good teams run in tombs. It doesn't matter because those builds aren't trick builds, but good, robust strategies that are not trivially countered. The good teams are unaffected since they already know what's coming and have a plan - the bad teams and pugs are still bad teams and pugs, and accordingly get smashed.

In other words your worries are completely unfounded. All observer mode is going to do is weed out the truly wretched builds faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

Once you win with a build that has any real staying power in HoH, everyone will jump on and blam, next FoTM.

Which is exactly how it is now. No one cares. The good teams still smash the bad teams and the bad teams keep copying and wondering why their build isn't carrying them to victory. It's a non-issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

I don't know whether the observer mode is made for GvG too, because if it is, then guilds will have to change builds overnight.

The top guilds on the ladder know all of the other top guilds' builds skill for skill. That hasn't forced any of them to change builds. I don't see how making that information available to even less relevant teams forces change upon anyone.

Peace,
-CxE

smurfhunter · Sep 06, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Everyone who matters knows what the good teams run in tombs. It doesn't matter because those builds aren't trick builds, but good, robust strategies that are not trivially countered. The good teams are unaffected since they already know what's coming and have a plan - the bad teams and pugs are still bad teams and pugs, and accordingly get smashed.

question: can you list like say 5 guilds you consider "good"?

UberRusty · Sep 07, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

I don't think you understand, the concern you've just expressed is precisely the concern I'm saying is selfish and counter-productive to the pvp environment as a whole.

And I'm saying you're wrong. We can argue all week long about this post, but we would end up nowhere. We have a difference of opinions, I'll leave it at that.

Quote:

So, UberRusty, to sum up, think of your build not as your private property that entitles you to win halls nonstop for a month, but rather as a new and innovative strategy that has been introduced to the tombs community.

You still don't understand me. But like I said, I'll leave it at this.

Quote:

In other words your worries are completely unfounded. All observer mode is going to do is weed out the truly wretched builds faster.

Or, everybody will know what you run skill for skill, and in that case, run the exact same thing as you. Then it's all a matter of skill execution and battlefield awareness. Which the top guilds might win, or they might not. There are a surprising number of "good" players who reacts extremely quickly to what is going on in the "bad" guilds.

Quote:

The top guilds on the ladder know all of the other top guilds' builds skill for skill. That hasn't forced any of them to change builds.

So, let's say for an exaggerated example, are you saying if you know guild X, Y and Z runs a total Warrior build, you wouldn't change your build to fit something for anti-melee?

Akathrielah · Sep 07, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

You know, I would be as concerned as you are UberRusty, if there weren't so many piss-horrible smite teams running around in tombs, I mean the kind that makes you scratched your head and wonder if that team isn't full of lobotomy patients.

Keep in mind that the current smite build only requires players to have IQs slightly higher than the average room temperature for it to be effective. So yeah.

Even if they stole a build that you worked quite hard on, they would have to:
A) Figure out all of the nuances of your build.
B) Figure out how to run it efficiently.
C) Actually be skilled enough to apply A and B while the enemy is pounding on them and doing their hardest to keep them from winning.

This is all running on the assumption that
D) They understand the foundation and nuances of PvP -what makes a good build, what x class(es)/skills are best suited for y role, how to tie everything together efficiently, etc.

So yeah.

I wouldn't be worrying anytime soon.

At the moment, I (and I'm sure there are many others that are far, far better than I at this), can just glance at the class combinations your team is running and after a half of minute, possibly more or less (depending on the simplicity of your build) figure out what skills you're build is running and what are the win conditions for your build. So the observer mode, is really only for those who want to watch the going-ons of tombs PvP when they don't have enough time to become engaged with it themselves, or if they are new to (tombs) pvp and wish to see how it is, without spending the next 3 hours to make a group that won't make it passed the Unworthy .

keen · Sep 07, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

i agree with sir ensign

primitiveworker · Sep 07, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Tombs 8v8 is a Tournament. In any Tournament I've ever competed in, the materials you bring to the competition are strictly scrutinized and made public.

For instance, in Magic the Gathering tournaments, each player must submit a decklist, and these lists are made public. The winners then often have their names attached to the deck builds and in the weeks/months to come are respected as innovators. "OMG! You're running the JeffMcBoingBoing RavagerBlastFinity build aren't you! Good luck when you face off against TharanColt's FreshBaker build!"

If something like this were done, where each time someone wins or defends the hall the team build were made available with the guild and team members names, it would solve the "I WANT TO BE FAMOUS AND RECOGNIZED FOR MY WORK" problem.

If you want to keep your builds secret, well, I personally don't believe your entitled to that. But whatever. Maybe the community feels differently.

The more available winning builds are, the more diversity and higher quality of the competition. It's possible to think otherwise, but you would be doing so falsely.

The reason many players only latch on to one build at a time is because there is a serious lack of availability for strong team builds. Smite is popular because it's dead-simple to build and run, and requires minimal explanation.

The lack of quality of the average PUG can be directly related to the lack of availability of quality team builds out there. Once they get some experience playing good builds, and working as a team, you'll see the average PUG quality increase.

Spirit Spammers, Air Spikers and Triple Smite are so simple they easily caught on.

Again, if players were more open with successful team builds, you'd see a lot more variety and much higher quality.

Right now the mentality of the Tombs newcomer is that if you're not a KD/AS or E/Mo smiter, you can't get into a group. Or, at least that's how it seems. And it was the same way with spirits and air spikers.

Blah blah.

---

Again, the MtG community has great respect for the metagame, and for clever builds, and they share with eachother. The current GW community lacks all of this.

emil knight · Sep 07, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

If you have observer mode you'll be able to see what skills everyone is doing unless they get rid of the status bar, animations, and skill slot area while people are fighting.

This is the way I understood the observer mode to be. Much like having a box seat at a major sporting event. Unless you know the plays being run just by watching, you'd never know what you were seeing other than just a big "match".

Sure some people will be able to identify certain skills by the animations, but most people won't.

I hope this is what ANet had in mind... I'm sure most players wouldn't want thier builds broadcast like that.

IlikeGW · Sep 07, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by desktopbob

You guys really don't get it. You're so worried that your super-secret combo will be discovered (it will be regardless of observer mode if its really that great) that you're missing the bigger picture. The more KNOWLEDGE that's available to everyone through observing good teams in action (what skills are used, how they use them, etc...) the better EVERYONE becomes at pvp. The end result is tombs becomes a much more competitive, innovative environment.

the problem is super secret combos take months to make at the rate of acquistion of the bits and pieces in the game... and then everyone is just going to rip it off and your work is nothing. if they ever ungrind skill acquistion then people will share again.

Bast · Sep 07, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

It's not like super secret builds stay super secret anyway. Even halfway-decent players can watch what you're casting and figure it out. If a guild comes up with something that just smashes everyone in Tombs, it will be copied. Badly, perhaps, but copied at least in part.

I'm of the opinion that Observer Mode should show exactly what an opponent would see, but for both sides. The benefit of this is increased knowledge for people, and maybe some of the middle-of-the-pack guilds will learn something and become good themselves. Further benefit comes from the elevation of competition due to teams learning new combos and uses for skills. I don't think smashing newb teams with some super secret build can be as satisfying as beating a really good team would be. Beating good teams is where the enjoyment and challenge is. Anyone can beat newbs. Hell, even newbs beat newbs.